wiki/mediawiki/Talk/Milestone_3_Design_Document.mw

== Comments ==

:Wow, the wall stone levels look really great!  When will they be incorporated in Supertux?  NathanKP 8/30/2007

:I don't think that reset points look bad at all.  However, if all the levels are too short the game as a whole won't be very impressive.  Maybe it would be better if reset points were recoded so that level save points included the last reset point.  In other words, the user could leave Tux at a rest point, quit Supertux, restart and be within the last played level at the last reset point.  I think that might be a useful feature. NathanKP  10:10 8/30/2007

: Making saveslot selection the very first thing in the game (before the mainmenu pops up) might be a good idea --[[User:MatzeB|MatzeB]] 19:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
::Why? --[[User:Superdev|Superdev]] 22:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

: We could use small supertux levels instead of the main menu. So you could navigate through some doors to the game or install addons by grabbing and dropping boxes :) The only menu left would be the Escape/Pause menu where you can setup controls --[[User:MatzeB|MatzeB]] 19:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
::That's a fun idea :). This could be integrated/related to grumbel's Walrus shop. - [[User:Sik0fewl|sik0fewl]] 21:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
:::There has been a "main menu"-style test level in data/levels/test/menutest.stl for some time now. It could be a starting point for further tests. --[[User:Sommer|Sommer]] 21:34, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

: Storryteller voice over for intro is not a good idea, as it's hard to find translators for that. So we should avoid spoken text as much as possible IMO.
:: Don't think that would be an issue at all, those who don't get translation, simply get english voice overs and translated sub-titles. Anyway, voice over are just a idea which one could try out, without a good speaker it wouldn't be much fun to begin with. -- [[User:Grumbel|Grumbel]] 20:53, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
But we already have two possible voices ("yahoo" from M2 and "excellent" from M1) that may work for Tux and/or Penny. The penguins actually speaking would add charm to an already wonderful game... [[User:Julius Freezer|Julius_Freezer]] 23:07, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

: I really prefer a non-linear worldmap. I would vote against reusing the M1 worldmap.
:: Nothing wrong with adding a few additional paths to the M1 worldmap, but the current worldmap in SVN is simply a illogical mess with levels everywhere, except where they should be.  Some linearity is simply needed to give the player a reason to actually play the levels at all. -- [[User:Grumbel|Grumbel]] 20:53, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
:: I agree. I would say the one in subversion is even worse than M1. Having entire branch(es) that are totally useless (ie, doesn't help you complete the game) are, well... totally useless :). I think the levels should either be integrated into the island better (ie, have alternate paths to complete the game or paths to bonuses like SMB's mushroom hut, etc) or they should be moved into Bonus Islands. Perhaps we could do a bit of both. - [[User:Sik0fewl|sik0fewl]] 21:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
:::So you play the levels because you have to, not for fun? --[[User:Superdev|Superdev]] 22:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
:::: Yes -- [[User:Grumbel|Grumbel]] 23:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
:::Well, then lets make that branches useful instead of removing them all. I think it would be a good idea to have Tux going back from a world to another. For example, in the forest world could be a branch to a Walrus shop or Bonus Level that you cannot access if you didn't get some item in a branch of the ice world. But I like the fact that, for example, you get he choice to choose between 2 easy levels and 1 hard level to get to the same point. If you get stuck in the hard level, instead of getting frustrated, you can skip it and try the easy ones. You can always go back and try to beat the hard one once you have got more experience. --[[User:Ferk|Ferk]] 17:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC) 
::::Yeah, that's ''is'' a good idea. You should have to do as many of the levels as possible, with some choices of different branches--some players don't have the patience for a bunch of easy levels, while others might not be good enough to tackle the harder levels like "Countercurrent." Branching by itself is good, but pointless branching to nowhere is, as I said, pointless. Example: Perhaps you can take the cave to a certain point in Icy Island, or go through...say...the Mysterious House of Ice series to get to the bridge, or something?...maybe instead of two bridge levels, there should be one harder one with new, up to this point, badguys to guard the gate. (Nolok's Fortress should, of course, be ''much'' harder than the gate!!) All that to say, "Branch where you need to, but you still have to do the levels in order to get through." [[User:Julius Freezer|Julius_Freezer]] 23:07, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
:::Yes the forest world has key levels (IMO there should be several levels(maybe 3) on a branch and the last level on the branch can be the key level.Some branches could be interconnected and the rest of the levels should be between the branches.The first world should have something similar that does so that you HAVE to enter the branches).And one more thing,the walrus shop should also be in the end of a branch.And on that branch there would be a quite easy level with a name like"Going Shopping"or something like that
::Good idea.

: I don't understand why it says "bottom-less pits shall be either replaced by pits with spike at the bottom or allow Tux to climb back out of the pit." The only difference if Tux falls into a pit with spikes at the bottom versus a bottomless pit is that it takes him longer to die. The pits with spikes in the forest world are much more annoying than the bottomless pits because you have to sit there and watch Tux slowly die without being able to do anything about it. I'd prefer to keep it as is with having bottomless pits. [[User:Cooljeanius|Cooljeanius]] 20:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
::What about instant kill spikes? Something like lava but with a texture that fits in ice/forest. --[[User:Superdev|Superdev]] 22:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
:: The idea behind this is to have pits that don't kill you, but instead simply slow you down. If you didn't make the jump, just climb out and try again. It also gives the world a more 'complete' look, if you don't have holes all over the place. The spikes, which indeed should kill instantly, should only be used in those rare cases where you explicitly want to make a level extra hard (i.e. boss castle).
::I see both views. Some levels (like the sky levels through clouds) would be fine with "holes" and "bottomless pits", but it looks awful in fortresses (where it was eventually replaced with lava, thank goodness). Maybe for long jumps there could be a pit with spikies or whatever. Anyways, I DON'T like spiked pits that Tux can't climb out of (like in "Find the Bigger Fish"). They are annoying and everyone I know who plays Supertux calls them mean. [[User:Julius Freezer|Julius_Freezer]] 23:07, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

: Mailing list often overrun by non-development people, making it hard to discuss core game features - (from document)
:: One option is to use the bugtracker to discuss these features and set the ticket as "private" so that only developers can see it. This might be abuse of the tracker, depending on the issue being discussed, but it would certainly work. Alternatively I could set up a list that only developers can post to and even view(?). - [[User:Sik0fewl|sik0fewl]] 20:52, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
::Mailing list is better. The bugtracker is complex enough already. For mails you don't even have to be online. --[[User:Superdev|Superdev]] 22:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
:: Of course the bug tracker is complex.  In fact, it's even an intended misuse of it.  There's a reason why they are called "issues", not "bugs".  My vote would be too just throw out the Mailing List entirely.  And what's this "you don't have to be online for email"?  You have to be online to do stuff on the internet. --[[User:Tuxdev|Tuxdev]] 15:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
:::Well, you can download your mails and then disconnect form the internet. That way you don't have to pay while reading them. Mail is not just hotmail or gmail, you really can download them to your computer, PDA or laptop. You can even write the answers while offline. Of cause to send them, you have to connect to an ISP again. --[[User:Ert|Ert]] 18:45, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

You mentioned a storyteller? Well, I am ready to do the job if you let me. I think I would do great... --[[User:Penguin Man|Penguin Man]] 00:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Try world three update that I made myself! For mac users only though. [http://files.filefront.com/Supertux+world+3dmg/;13614149;/fileinfo.html]
: What license do you release it under? We might put it in the addon manager. --[[User:Mathnerd314|Mathnerd314]] 21:33, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

== Brainstorming of forest things... ==

* big trees, bushes, mushrooms, moss
* birds like cuckoo, woodpecker, owl, crows, "normal birds" (either in background with sound or as enemy...)
* smaller streams and waterfalls
* rocks here and there
* falling leaves
* crawling enemies (bugs, ants, ant-hills, spiders, ticks)
* tree house
* deers, elks
* glades with fairies


: Flamey and Water Droplet were suggested on the page this discussion page is about, and I have a few suggestions...
:* Make Flamey grow bigger when hit by FireTux's fireballs
:* Make Water Droplet immune to fire (or maybe evaporate a size?)
:* SVG file type, only one image required, but doesn't allow for differences in appearance.
: I apologize if I do not understand the formatting for this document, I spend more time with simplified C than web design. I could contribute more if I could only figure out how to set up an IRC client.

== Suggested world names for World 2 ==

Ice Forest, Ageless Forest, Dead Forest, Fiendish Forest, Nolok's Forest, Forest of Magic, Frosty Forest, Magic Forest, Freaky Forest, Snowless Forest, Icy Woods, Tuxedo Timberlands, Woody Forest, Wormy Woods, Windy Woodlands, Winter Woodlands, Impregnable Forest, Silvaniveus (forest + snow in Latin), Enchanted Forest, Timber! Tux (watch out for the loggers!)

More stuff to build alliterations from:

Fable, Familiar, Fairy, Fateful, Forked, Fallow, Fancy, Fantasy, Fearless, Fetid, Fleeting, Folly, Former, Frail, Fretful, Friendly, Furrowed, Forest, Fields, Fallow, Fringe, Fang, Frightful

==New Engine Features==

* Falling Leaves particle system
* rising lava/water
* moving platforms (branches that move a bit up and down, or logs falling down a waterfall)
* support for cutscenes (done in a lisp file) in a level
* sound triggers in some areas (cuckoo or woodpecker sound in some part of the level)
* sound triggers when touching objects (ripple sound when walking on a steam)
* Rocks that you can carry around to reach higher places (similar thing already done in "Tux the Builder")
* A bug enemy (or several sorts of bugs?) such as ticks and bees
* An ant enemy
* A branch enemy (a branch of a big tree that tries to beat tux, or simply moves up/down)
* uneven tiles so you can have some small hills
* Multiple sectors (ie. you can enter tree by walking into some holes)
* (We might experiment with some shadow effects that you get with moving branches?)
* bouncy branch, a branch that makes you bounce very high into the air.
* In a forest level a growing thorn vine, which makes Tux hurry through the level.



=== Concept art ===

[[Image:Snow forest sm.png]]
[[Image:Castledoor small.png]]

== Ladders ==

Another problem with climbing as GameObject instead of tile attribute is that now tiles that look the same can behave completely different.
Sooner or later there will be levels with surprises like "oh you have to climb THAT in here" and "AAAAAAAAAAAH, you can no longer climb this convenient tiles above the lava".
: Stupid level design is no reason to throw out or change a feature.  Same could be said for the scripting and its minimalism/maximalism debate. --[[User:Tuxdev|Tuxdev]] 15:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
::I agree. It would be as simple as denying any level which does not follow these certain "rules" from the release.

== Editor ==

The items: "editor needs a minimap, like Flexlay" and "editor needs a grid, like Flexlay":
:Both must be possible to enable/disable. Also don't think they are really high priority.

::An editor would certainly be fun, but clearly not necessary. Perhaps Flexlay's supertux editor could be incorporated or something? Anyways, my point is it should be available but not urgent. I favor keeping it separate from the main menu, but I think it should be included in the program. Perhaps you can enter the command "supertux --editor" or something along that line. I can name a lot of people who would much rather have that than flexlay. In other words, SuperTux should be self-contained--but because it is Open Source, anyone should be able to make levels for their own (and their friends') enjoyment. [[User:Julius Freezer|Julius_Freezer]] 23:07, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

== World 3 ==

Would it be a possibility that we could add the third world in to the Milestone 2 version? It could be a big landfill or dump, because it's "third world". --[[User:Penguin Man|Penguin Man]] 00:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

*Funny. But no way. How about Tux in a city for World III? You can go through buildings and stuff, and possibly ride on top of cars to go down the street--if you fall off, you get run over (e.g., hurt) without the need for lava or spikes or bottomless pits, and your enemies can range from people to pigeons to pets. [[User:Julius Freezer|Julius_Freezer]] 23:07, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
*NO WAY! We've already been waiting a year for MS2, we don't want to wait another year!!
*That's really politically incorrect.
*So what? no one would have to know. I doubt enough Third World inhabitants will be playing Supertux to offend anybody. It be fine for a laugh but probably better for a bonus island than the story ones. 

==Drop bear?==
Maybe instead of a spider? [http://www.geocities.com/muirnin/db.htm Info here.] Looks like a large koala with sharp claws and teeth!

Maybe a bear (not necessarily that bear, but possibly) could be the boss--
--or even better, a sasquatch could! (Because it goes with the Yeti) [[User:Julius Freezer|Julius_Freezer]] 23:07, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

== Free software mascots ==

Since Tux is the main character, I think it would be cool if this game featured more free software mascots. For example, the shopkeeper could be a gnu (GNU) or a demon (FreeBSD) instead of a walrus. Maybe even a different mascot in each shop?
: See the Rejected Ideas section. FSF mascots have already been nixed.

== Open Questions ==
What contrib levels contain things to recycle...I say, ''anything'' made by PenguinMaster! Water Works and Firestorm would be '''great''' to use/recycle/copy--not too sure about any of the others, except for maybe the cave ones on SuperTux Team Island.... [[User:Julius Freezer|Julius_Freezer]] 23:22, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


== Stupid Ideas==

According to Julius Freezer:
* Getting rid of Tux's firehat
:: It's great!
* Ghost Forest
:: Come on, squishing snowballs is great. No need to make it all mystical and stupid.
* Granitos
* Bunch of paths leading nowhere. 
* (Not making new levels for Icyisland while keeping obsolete ones from M1?)
:I would hesitate to call any idea stupid. -- Qwood [[Special:Contributions/Qwood|(contribs)]] [[User talk:Qwood|(talk)]] 04:22, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

== Pipes ==

Nodule on the edge of the pipes are not decoration, but it actually covers the pipe. So it would not be there at all, or do without covers and pipe covers.
:Like this? http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/berlauf2aoku9l3f.jpg
:Yes, like this.
There is a proposion, what would happen, when you press the down arrow on the pipe.<br> [[Image:Pipe_entrance.png]]<br>
...and another way to enter the pipe. <br>[[Image:Pipe_entrance2.png]]<br>
--[[User:Hume|Hume]] 18:39, 19 November 2011 (UTC)